Curse

Rancour · Dec 09, 2005, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Another handicap sword warriors have, is that 2 of their 4 adrenal skills rely on a "meaty" enemy. Practically EVERY sword warrior uses Sever Artery-Gash-(Galrath)-Final Thrust to deal damage. But if you encounter either undead, elementals, jades, nightmares or titans, sword warriors are screwed. They can't use Sever Artery to make the opponent bleed, and they can't use Gash to give them the desired Deep Wound, which can normally be done on any opponent. So you're left with Final Thrust, or Final Thrust + Galrath if you're a little more offencive. Two slow charging skills, of which one requires you to kick the enemy when he's down. And those enemies are the brunt of the later mission monsters.

I know that in PvP, everyone is fleshy, but PvE has relevance too.

Swords are the weakest weapons and they don't work against higher level enemies. Axe warriors can do what they like to anything they like. Unbalanced? Yes, sir!

Racthoh · Dec 09, 2005, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancour

I know that in PvP, everyone is fleshy, but PvE has relevance too.

Swords are the weakest weapons and they don't work against higher level enemies. Axe warriors can do what they like to anything they like. Unbalanced? Yes, sir!

Concerning PvE, I have yet to see the axe swinger that can farm UW alone. Unbalanced indeed, those poor axe warriors can't get ecto.

I can't speak for the rest of the warriors, but in PvE I design my warrior to survive first and to deal support damage second. Sever + Gash... eh, like you said it won't work in every situation therefore I'm not going to take it anywhere. Although I will say that there are a lot of dumb sword warriors (probably from playing paladin so much) that will consistantly try to Sever Artery on skeletons. Do they not read the red text that appears in the middle of the screen saying that the target requires flesh, and for that matter do they not look at their opponent's health bar to see that it is now a lighter shade of red to indicate that bleeding did work? Even in PvP I see warriors try to Gash my monk after I've mended Bleeding, it's sad.

Phades · Dec 09, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

In which case it comes down to how you want to execute the spike. Do you want a spike that hits for 600 damage over 2 seconds, or an 800 damage spike over 3 seconds? (Just random numbers, for sake of argument) One gives the opponent less time to react, but fewer heals to compensate the damage. The other gives more time, but requires a stronger healing to counter the damage. Packing in more damage in a small time frame also requires precision timing, spread it out slightly for human error. Currently, speed appears to be what option they choose.

For every moment of hesitation yeild more time for the opponent to react. You only need to do 500 damage to make a kill. That extra second potentially adds up to 400 (or more)more hp of damage needed in order to make the kill or creates a period of near invulnerability. Should the spike be foiled, it would require a repeate untill the energy war is won. In which case axes still win due to their ability to repeate spikes more quickly. If slow overkill was sucessful, air spike would still be widely used.

Maxiemonster · Dec 09, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

This is just very true, and everyone knows this, haven't seen swords in massive amounts for weeks now, but all (non-tribal) axes don't look cool, so I want to use swords!

Yichi · Dec 09, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Swords can make one of the best taking builds with regards to riptose and deadly riptose. also they can do a good deal of dmg if you know how to execture them right. as well as conditions and interrupts. I have a razorstone in my warriors stash, but she doesnt use it no where near as much as her sword

entropy · Dec 09, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

this has already been debated sooo many times

Racthoh · Dec 09, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Should the spike be foiled, it would require a repeate untill the energy war is won. In which case axes still win due to their ability to repeate spikes more quickly. If slow overkill was sucessful, air spike would still be widely used.

One person spiking with an axe as soon as it fills probably isn't going to go anywhere (makes me wish I actually had experience to back this up...). Yes the axe warrior can refill the adrenaline skills faster if the spike is foiled, but what about the rest of the team? Will they be in a position at the same regular interval of time as the adrenaline is built to deliver the spike the instant the warrior is ready? For that matter, has their energy been burned, have the spells recharged? Obviously something in the spike was foiled, be it a Distracting Shot, one of many mesmer interrupts, or a simple Infuse Health. Certain skills will allow you to continue on in regular intervals, others will leave you waiting.

Guess my question would have to be, how long does a team wait inbetween spikes? If you're just sitting there with full adrenaline waiting to execute that strike, how then is the weapon more effective if all you're doing in that time is attacking normally with a weapon that only has a DPS of less than a point of damage higher.

SaintGreg · Dec 09, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Q: If sword warriors suck so bad why do people still use them?

A: because they don't suck

galrath slash and final thrust are awesome non-elites. Final thrust is basically as much damage as eviscerate without the deep wound damage, and its non-eilte. Meaning we can put it a good elite - charge, or something else useful that will help your team out besides just damage. 2 sword warriors charging your whole team around and still doing high spike damage is pretty useful in almost all facets of pvp - flags, relics, getting to the altar first, being able to run away if it comes to that.

Plague · Dec 09, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I've never seen the point in bringing all axes into an IWAY build. I've actually been kicked several times for bringing along a sword.

Sure, an axe may do more damage and/or be capable of attacking multiple targets, but how is that any good if you can't catch your target, or if the enemy is smart enough to spread apart and use AoEs and Wards at your location?

I can't count the number of times I've saved the rest of my axe-happy partners' butts by crippling our targets with sword skills. Axe has these skills, but they're adrenaline-based. You can't build andrenaline if you can't hit your targets.

Phades · Dec 09, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

One person spiking with an axe as soon as it fills probably isn't going to go anywhere (makes me wish I actually had experience to back this up...). Yes the axe warrior can refill the adrenaline skills faster if the spike is foiled, but what about the rest of the team? Will they be in a position at the same regular interval of time as the adrenaline is built to deliver the spike the instant the warrior is ready? For that matter, has their energy been burned, have the spells recharged? Obviously something in the spike was foiled, be it a Distracting Shot, one of many mesmer interrupts, or a simple Infuse Health. Certain skills will allow you to continue on in regular intervals, others will leave you waiting.

Guess my question would have to be, how long does a team wait inbetween spikes? If you're just sitting there with full adrenaline waiting to execute that strike, how then is the weapon more effective if all you're doing in that time is attacking normally with a weapon that only has a DPS of less than a point of damage higher.

The more often it happens the better, as it taxes the monk's energy pool and timing that much more. It is not as much taxing in the sense that monk spells are expensive (which they arent for the most part), its that they do not get as much time to refresh their energy management skills before using their skills again. Typically this is one of the elements reffered to when people speak of an energy war opposed to direct shut down.

Energy based spikes are typically ready before the adrenalin spike is refreshed and usually is not more than 2 hits as well. Mixed group spiking can be tricky due to the timing of effects, but if the damage portion of the group is all the same class, then it tends to work out better. This is why i think some of the warrior skills lines are one directional. If you mix weapons and they use adrenalin, they are not ready to spike at the same time. This relieves alot of pressure on the healers or protection characters within the opposing group. Also, the tell tale bleeding would preclude the spike indicating who the recipiant of the spike would be in a sword based spike. This is why lightning surge was frowned at by organized or experienced groups durring the air spike popularity period. It could be used on more than one person at the same time, but if the spike failed (even due to a simple fertile season), it would cripple the team in the long term due to the high exaustion buildup that the skill created.

The less warning and the faster the spike is delivered and repeated, the more effective it is.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 10, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I believe there is no way to say which one of the Warrior Weapons is "the best" because they all can become weaker or stronger with different situations.

Struth · Dec 12, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

So many opinions: Axe Warroir sux, no Sword warroir sux, your both wrong Hammer warroir sux, round and round we go...

Simple Solution:

Creation of the all-cool: Sworxe

A Max Dmg Sworxe would look like this:

Long Sworxe
Slashing Dmg: 15-19 (req:5 Axe Mastery and 5 Swordsmanship)

A Sworxe dmg range could be anywhere from 8-19 dmg.

Upgrade Components:
Axe Grip of any type
Sword Hilt of any type

Purpose: A Sworxe is a combination of a Sword and an Axe (obvious by its appearance). A Warroir weilding this weapon gets the best out of both worlds (Axe and Sword), however, they sacrifice the Dmg for duel Masteries (double skill requirements). Sworxes are hard to find: "Why?" cus they are rare! If you find one, better hold on to it.

Sworxe's attack speed would be slower than axe/sword but faster than a Hammer.

What would one of these odd weapons look like? Here we go:

Comments? Be sure and flame the idea below...

Vhayr · Dec 12, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Hahaha.

Nexx · Dec 12, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Brilliant!

Zhou Feng · Dec 12, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

In my opinion sword shines in heavy condition builds with degen and stuff. Now there Sword become a very very deadly weapon. Not only do enemies get degen with hexes poison decay but also the swords bleeding and deep wound effect leading to a quick galrath final thrust combo. A Cripple Paladin using Hamstring are also very dangerous and if they bring Deadly Riposte it gets really nasty against Warriors. So It looked something like this:

Sever->Gash->Galrath->Final Thrust
two optional utility skills like Deadly Riposte and such
Elite of Choice (usually something to help you survive)
Rez Signet

Red Sonya · Dec 12, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

I know if they made CA elite it would really hurt my farming build cause I like to bring along Defy Pain. When in groups I like to bring along "Warriors Endurance" I can spam 2 to 3, five energy skills without ever stopping with this setup. It's fun and when using henchies a necessity. I'll usually also bring Beserker Stance or Frenzy to get my adrinilin up when using a sword, but, never do I use HB's. It's just too slow to recover and doesn't do near the dmg that CA does or increase adrinilin as fast. I have noticed though when playing PVE (with henchies) that the sword is the better option bringing final thrust and using frenzy with power attack and seeking blade. Definitely more dmg output than CA here, cause when I would bring Axe we'd die more often than when I would bring sword. (using henchies) Don't have that 64+ point dmg of final thrust with an axe. So takes longer to take a foe down. Axe just doesn't really have a killing blow (that isn't an elite). Good dmg adrinilin skills, but, too reliant on adrinilin skills for my tastes, I like to be able to strike when I'm ready to strike, not wait for a skill to be available.

Hey I just saw your Sworaxe, I love it. That would be so kewl. But, the assassin is going to bring us duel wield so we shall see how that goes over. I'm betting you can only use small weapons with different values, like rapiers, daggers, small mace, things like DnD has for the duel wielders. I'ma gonna make one though I love duel wielding Ranger/Clerics in DnD my favorite class.

Guess I'll have to be Mo/A in this though. ;( Rangers should get duel wield damnit!

.

Zhou Feng · Dec 12, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

i believe its all about the deep wound for warriors. there is no more powerful condition on the game that is covered up instantly.

with the warrior conditions you want to look at the chains to inflict a deep wound.

axe: deep wound (evisc, swift, dismember)-->cripple or weakness

hammer: weakness (devistating)-->KD-->deep wound (crushing blow)-->KD (heavy blow)

sword: bleedin (sever)-->deep wound (gash)

when you look at the condition chain warriors rely on sword just cannot compete. axe can inflict deep wound on the first skill and then cover it with the next attack. axes seem like they do more dmg but its from the deep wounds -20% healing.

hammers have a nice chain. only problem i have with hammer is no way to cover the deep wound. with a hammer you probly won't need to anyways but it does help.

sword has to rely on the "worst" condition on the game to inflict deep wound. bleeding is the lowest degen and easily detected by monks. swords would have to chain hamstring behind the gash to cover the deep wound. gash will do a big 9 more dmg while hamstring has no dmg buff. axe can do deep wound + dmg then cripple + dmg.

simply there are just better options mainly because of swords lack of condition chaining.

Hm maybe lower hamstring to 5 energy or make 100 blades cause cripple? well I believe Hamstring be a better choice if it werent because its so costly. All in all I tried today a warrior/monk sword and brought savage slash and pure strike and those skills work nicely to help the three hit combo.

Zhou Feng · Dec 12, 2005, 06:58 AM // 06:58

well after careful revising sword still does plenty of damage specially with such skills as pure strike savage slash and seeking blade. Its a bit tricky though nothing like axe but pretty good.

Slade xTekno · Dec 12, 2005, 08:24 AM // 08:24

I think people have lost track.
My point was that swords need a PvE skill on-par with Cyclone Axe. The way I suggested was to either nerf Cyclone Axe or buff HB.